Adding framing to frameless cabinets

[m***@hiwaay.net]

I have been reading all about building face frame and frameless
cabinets and I like the face frame look - it really shows off a good
wood. But I don't like the idea of the seam that is evident between
each cabinet (where each face frame cabinet is butted up to the next
cabinet - that is, the seam between the stiles on adjacent cabinets).
So, I plan on doing this:
1. Build the cabinet carcasses as if they are frameless cabinets
(no gaps between adjacent cabinet sides)
2. Install the cabinets and butt the sides of each cabinet to each
other
3. Add the face framing at this point using biscuits or pocket
screws to hold the face frame to the sides.
4. Set and install the doors/drawers hardware using typical face
frame hardware

The advantage of this approach is that the top and bottom rails can be
continuous (no breaks) and there is no seam in the stiles that separate
the cabinets.
The disadvantage is that you cannot set your doors or drawers until the
cabinets are installed into the kitchen. So a good percentage of the
fabrication occurs in the kitchen (which isn't a problem for me - the
homeowner)

Has anyone else done it this way? Are there problems that I didn't
consider?

Thanks

[RayV]

How straight are the walls and how long is the longest run? If the
walls aren't straight (unless Tom Silva framed the walls with ripped
microlam they aren't) the rails are going to have noticeable bows. You
will also need to make sure the cabinets are plumb, level and aligned
vertically. Standard cabinet installation allows for all of these
imperfections.

[RicodJour]

Post by RayV
How straight are the walls and how long is the longest run? If the
walls aren't straight (unless Tom Silva framed the walls with ripped
microlam they aren't) the rails are going to have noticeable bows. You
will also need to make sure the cabinets are plumb, level and aligned
vertically. Standard cabinet installation allows for all of these
imperfections.

Standard cabinet installation uses shims, scribing and other methods to
make sure that a block of cabinets is flush in both planes. Really no
difference between the two methods, and there's no reason to have
non-planar cabinet runs or bowed rails.

R

[Pat Barber]

How are you going to hang the doors ???

Flush mount or inset or are you trying to create
a "faux inset" look by hanging the doors first and
then wrapping the face frames around the doors ???

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
I have been reading all about building face frame and frameless
cabinets and I like the face frame look - it really shows off a good
wood. But I don't like the idea of the seam that is evident between
each cabinet (where each face frame cabinet is butted up to the next
cabinet - that is, the seam between the stiles on adjacent cabinets).

[m***@hiwaay.net]

For Pat Barber, I am going to hang the doors last and use door and
drawer hardware that attaches directly to the face frame. It mounts to
the side of the face rame (sort of grabs it). Blum makes some good
european style hinges that mount this way.

[Pat Barber]

That should work ok then.... Inset doors are a major pain
in the arse and I just read an article in a FWW special
on how to get around that.

I have used those hinges before and they are just fine.

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
For Pat Barber, I am going to hang the doors last and use door and
drawer hardware that attaches directly to the face frame. It mounts to
the side of the face rame (sort of grabs it). Blum makes some good
european style hinges that mount this way.

[m***@hiwaay.net]

Thanks to all that responded - I feel much better about going forward
as I described (PS For those that asked, the doors and drawer fronts
are all going to be full overlay, so alignment is not that critical.

[RicodJour]

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
I have been reading all about building face frame and frameless
cabinets and I like the face frame look - it really shows off a good
wood. But I don't like the idea of the seam that is evident between
each cabinet (where each face frame cabinet is butted up to the next
cabinet - that is, the seam between the stiles on adjacent cabinets).
1. Build the cabinet carcasses as if they are frameless cabinets
(no gaps between adjacent cabinet sides)
2. Install the cabinets and butt the sides of each cabinet to each
other
3. Add the face framing at this point using biscuits or pocket
screws to hold the face frame to the sides.
4. Set and install the doors/drawers hardware using typical face
frame hardware
The advantage of this approach is that the top and bottom rails can be
continuous (no breaks) and there is no seam in the stiles that separate
the cabinets.
The disadvantage is that you cannot set your doors or drawers until the
cabinets are installed into the kitchen. So a good percentage of the
fabrication occurs in the kitchen (which isn't a problem for me - the
homeowner)
Has anyone else done it this way? Are there problems that I didn't
consider?

That's the standard way to site build face frame cabinets. If you're
using doors and drawer fronts with a lipped profile it's a snap. It's
more work to make the doors flush, but if you keep the openings square
it's not a big problem.

R

R

[Stephen M]

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
I have been reading all about building face frame and frameless
cabinets and I like the face frame look - it really shows off a good
wood. But I don't like the idea of the seam that is evident between
each cabinet (where each face frame cabinet is butted up to the next
cabinet - that is, the seam between the stiles on adjacent cabinets).
1. Build the cabinet carcasses as if they are frameless cabinets
(no gaps between adjacent cabinet sides)

How 'bout one big assembly? (If it's less than 8 feet)

-Steve

[Leon]

Post by Stephen M

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
I have been reading all about building face frame and frameless
cabinets and I like the face frame look - it really shows off a good
wood. But I don't like the idea of the seam that is evident between
each cabinet (where each face frame cabinet is butted up to the next
cabinet - that is, the seam between the stiles on adjacent cabinets).
1. Build the cabinet carcasses as if they are frameless cabinets
(no gaps between adjacent cabinet sides)

How 'bout one big assembly? (If it's less than 8 feet)

Actually that is a best way and 8' is not a limit. I have an 11' cabinet in
my kitchen that I built as 1 piece.

[Robatoy]

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
I have been reading all about building face frame and frameless
cabinets and I like the face frame look - it really shows off a good
wood. But I don't like the idea of the seam that is evident between
each cabinet (where each face frame cabinet is butted up to the next
cabinet - that is, the seam between the stiles on adjacent cabinets).
1. Build the cabinet carcasses as if they are frameless cabinets
(no gaps between adjacent cabinet sides)

That shouldn't be a problem.

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
2. Install the cabinets and butt the sides of each cabinet to each
other
3. Add the face framing at this point using biscuits or pocket
screws to hold the face frame to the sides.

Pockets are going to leave those unsightly holes on the inside of the
cabinets.... but will be fine to pre-assemble the frames. Biscuits will
be fine to attach the completed frames to the cabinets.

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
4. Set and install the doors/drawers hardware using typical face
frame hardware

I'm doing a kitchen this way now. Visible hinges. No rocket science
req'd.

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
The advantage of this approach is that the top and bottom rails can be
continuous (no breaks) and there is no seam in the stiles that separate
the cabinets.

I prefer the look of the rails between the stiles. But we all have
choices. (I even create a minute groove to enhance that look). I do like
the look of a wide stile without seams between the cabinets. That's
worth doing IMO.

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
The disadvantage is that you cannot set your doors or drawers until the
cabinets are installed into the kitchen. So a good percentage of the
fabrication occurs in the kitchen (which isn't a problem for me - the
homeowner)

In my case, I'd never stop messing with the adjustments.

If you go the euro-hinge route, you can either attach a special plate to
the edge of the stile or you can get the much thicker plates to end
agains the gable and up flush with the edge of the stile.
Flush doors will be a whole lot of fiddlin'. That gap can't be very
loose..or you'll see the edge of the shelves, Tupperware etc. etc. As
suggested already, go with an partially 'let-in' overlap. That will hide
a whole myriad of minor errors.

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
Has anyone else done it this way? Are there problems that I didn't
consider?

Maybe you are underestimating the hassles you'll encounter when you
flush mount the doors. Not difficult, just tedious. If the doors are
perfectly flat on all planes, perfectly rectangular... same thickness?
Wood grain?
I have done this many times and I have thoroughly disliked doing it that
way as many times. The results are never up to standard. Not only do you
have to make sure the gap is the same all the way around, but also the
same as the cabinet next to it. ...One humid day and you'll be at it
again. 5 degree temperature change..out comes the plane and the Valium.
{g}

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
Thanks

[Swingman]

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
The disadvantage is that you cannot set your doors or drawers until the
cabinets are installed into the kitchen.

This is not a disadvantage ... it is a "good thing", most of the time. ;)

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
So a good percentage of the
fabrication occurs in the kitchen (which isn't a problem for me - the
homeowner)

This is also a "good thing" ... custom is as custom does.

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
Has anyone else done it this way? Are there problems that I didn't
consider?

While I have done it both ways, I rarely have the option to take the time to
do kitchens as you are anticipating, but it is precisely the way I prefer
doing "built-ins", like book cases.

[Leon]

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
I have been reading all about building face frame and frameless
cabinets and I like the face frame look - it really shows off a good
wood. But I don't like the idea of the seam that is evident between
each cabinet (where each face frame cabinet is butted up to the next
cabinet - that is, the seam between the stiles on adjacent cabinets).
1. Build the cabinet carcasses as if they are frameless cabinets
(no gaps between adjacent cabinet sides)

2. Install the cabinets and butt the sides of each cabinet to each

Post by m***@hiwaay.net
other
3. Add the face framing at this point using biscuits or pocket
screws to hold the face frame to the sides.
4. Set and install the doors/drawers hardware using typical face
frame hardware
The advantage of this approach is that the top and bottom rails can be
continuous (no breaks) and there is no seam in the stiles that separate
the cabinets.
The disadvantage is that you cannot set your doors or drawers until the
cabinets are installed into the kitchen. So a good percentage of the
fabrication occurs in the kitchen (which isn't a problem for me - the
homeowner)
Has anyone else done it this way? Are there problems that I didn't
consider?

I have done it both ways in that I added the face frame after the entire 14'
cabinet was assembled as one unit. I prefer separate cabinets for
maneuverability and not having to add face frames after the circuses are
installed. Done properly you should not see the seams where face frames
attach to each other.