Pentair to sell tool division: Delta, Porter-Cable

[Brian Elfert]

Pentair has hired Goldman Sachs to sell its tool division. Brand names
include Delta, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss Air Power, and Oldham Saw.

Pentair is selling because the tool divison only generates 10% margins vs
13% for their water systems.

I'll bet this will be the last gasp for Made in the USA Delta and
Porter-Cable products. A new buyer would probably move Unisaw production
overseas to increase margins.

Brian Elfert

[Frank Ketchum]

Post by Brian Elfert
Pentair has hired Goldman Sachs to sell its tool division. Brand names
include Delta, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss Air Power, and Oldham Saw.
Pentair is selling because the tool divison only generates 10% margins vs
13% for their water systems.
I'll bet this will be the last gasp for Made in the USA Delta and
Porter-Cable products. A new buyer would probably move Unisaw production
overseas to increase margins.

Man that sucks. I hate to see changes coming like this since I really like
Delta and Porter Cable products. On the positive side, they may be able to
offer the same quality of tools at a lower price and still get a better
margin for themselves with oversees production.

Frank

[Rumpty]

Post by Frank Ketchum
On the positive side, they may be able to

offer the same quality of tools at a lower price and still get a better
margin for themselves with oversees production.

Ya true and the hell with the folks working the Delta PC production lines,
they never bought what you had to sell anyway. (I really should throw in a
smiley face with my comment, but this is all too serious.)

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Wes Stewart]

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:38:06 -0500, "Rumpty" <***@coldcuts.com>
wrote:

|>On the positive side, they may be able to
|offer the same quality of tools at a lower price and still get a better
|margin for themselves with oversees production.
|
|Ya true and the hell with the folks working the Delta PC production lines,
|they never bought what you had to sell anyway. (I really should throw in a
|smiley face with my comment, but this is all too serious.)

Maybe the employees should consider buying the company themselves.
They get to keep their jobs and it might even increase their market
share.

[P©WÉ®T©©LMAN ²ºº4]

Post by Frank Ketchum

Post by Brian Elfert
Pentair has hired Goldman Sachs to sell its tool division. Brand names
include Delta, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss Air Power, and Oldham Saw.
Pentair is selling because the tool divison only generates 10% margins vs
13% for their water systems.
I'll bet this will be the last gasp for Made in the USA Delta and
Porter-Cable products. A new buyer would probably move Unisaw production
overseas to increase margins.

Man that sucks. I hate to see changes coming like this since I really like
Delta and Porter Cable products. On the positive side, they may be able to
offer the same quality of tools at a lower price and still get a better
margin for themselves with oversees production.
Frank

Pigs might fly

Jon~

[SteveC1280]

More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
candidates push for a buy American movement.
Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.

[Brian Elfert]

Post by SteveC1280
More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
candidates push for a buy American movement.

Pentair doesn't even have a buyer yet. We don't know that any buyer will
move jobs overseas.

Yes, it is likely that production will move overseas. If production of
the Unisaw is moved overseas, there will no longer be any reason to buy
the Unisaw. The Jet is already less expensive and the quality is nearly
equal to the Unisaw.

We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.

Brian Elfert

[Frank Ketchum]

Post by Brian Elfert
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.

Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
Just how much potential is there in the services sector?

Frank

[Lawrence A. Ramsey]

Does this mean there may be more Indians than Chiefs? Unbelieveable.



On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 16:03:50 GMT, "Frank Ketchum"

Post by Frank Ketchum

Post by Brian Elfert
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.

Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
Frank

[Robert Bonomi]

Post by Lawrence A. Ramsey
Does this mean there may be more Indians than Chiefs? Unbelieveable.

Nah. Never happen.

Major League Baseball mandates a smaller team roster than what the NFL allows.


*guffaw*

Post by Lawrence A. Ramsey
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 16:03:50 GMT, "Frank Ketchum"

Post by Frank Ketchum

Post by Brian Elfert
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.

Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
Frank

[Brian Elfert]

Post by Frank Ketchum

Post by Brian Elfert
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.

Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
Just how much potential is there in the services sector?

I don't like all the manufacturing jobs going overseas, but it is
happening. I try to buy USA made where possible but some stuff is almost
impossible to find made in the USA. I can't always afford to spend a day
or two trying to find an item made in the USA.

In another decade or so, we won't have any IT jobs left in the USA.
Everything will be farmed out to India. With the Internet, all the
servers will get moved to India. The only computers left in the USA will
be desktops that are maintained by a very small workforce.

I fully expect to be out of a job in 5 to 10 years as server
administration gets farmed out overseas to save money.

Brian Elfert

[Jim Bailey]

Brian, as a professional programmer I will echo your sentiments. Things
I've made my living on the past 25 years are now being done in India. If
you'd have told me back then that I was making a bad career choice, I'd have
ask you what planet you're from.

Back on topic - I like Wes's idea a few posts back. Isn't there at least a
couple of employee owned airlines that are doing pretty well? Why not a
tool company ?

jim bailey

Post by Brian Elfert
In another decade or so, we won't have any IT jobs left in the USA.
Everything will be farmed out to India. With the Internet, all the
servers will get moved to India. The only computers left in the USA will
be desktops that are maintained by a very small workforce.
I fully expect to be out of a job in 5 to 10 years as server
administration gets farmed out overseas to save money.
Brian Elfert

[s***@home.com]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:54:49 GMT, "Jim Bailey"

Post by Jim Bailey
Brian, as a professional programmer I will echo your sentiments. Things
I've made my living on the past 25 years are now being done in India. If
you'd have told me back then that I was making a bad career choice, I'd have
ask you what planet you're from.
Back on topic - I like Wes's idea a few posts back. Isn't there at least a
couple of employee owned airlines that are doing pretty well? Why not a
tool company ?
jim bailey

Post by Brian Elfert
In another decade or so, we won't have any IT jobs left in the USA.
Everything will be farmed out to India. With the Internet, all the
servers will get moved to India. The only computers left in the USA will
be desktops that are maintained by a very small workforce.
I fully expect to be out of a job in 5 to 10 years as server
administration gets farmed out overseas to save money.
Brian Elfert

i will second that! i am not in the IT feild. I am in construction so
its different. my job is not going overseas but all the imigrants are
taking the construction jobs now because they are willing to work
cheap. wages are dropping because of this but the cost of living is
not dropping is it? i dont pretend to have the answers but at this
rate WE will be the poor country and the poor countries will be the
rich ones. think about it.

skeez

[Brian Elfert]

Post by s***@home.com
i will second that! i am not in the IT feild. I am in construction so
its different. my job is not going overseas but all the imigrants are
taking the construction jobs now because they are willing to work
cheap. wages are dropping because of this but the cost of living is

Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
work you have ever seen. Almost everything has been redone at least once.
My friend has spent 10s of thousands on repairs to a new house. Last I
heard, the stucco was being replaced because no expansion joints were
used.

I worked with a group of Hmong cutting grass in the 80s. They expended
more effort figuring out how not to do work than actually working.
Luckily, it was a drought year and there wasn't any grass to cut.

Brian Elfert

[s***@home.com]

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by s***@home.com
i will second that! i am not in the IT feild. I am in construction so
its different. my job is not going overseas but all the imigrants are
taking the construction jobs now because they are willing to work
cheap. wages are dropping because of this but the cost of living is

Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
work you have ever seen. Almost everything has been redone at least once.
My friend has spent 10s of thousands on repairs to a new house. Last I
heard, the stucco was being replaced because no expansion joints were
used.
I worked with a group of Hmong cutting grass in the 80s. They expended
more effort figuring out how not to do work than actually working.
Luckily, it was a drought year and there wasn't any grass to cut.
Brian Elfert

yeh BUT for the most part contractors today arent realy interested in
quality. the main concern seems to be how fast can you do it and how
much is it gonna cost? when 5 illegals can go in and knock it out in 1
1/2 - 2 hours and it will take me most of a day to do it right by
myself and they cut my prices by 40% chances are they will get the
work. the prospective home buyer wont see all the crap because he or
she wont know what to look for so quality doesnt count. its a sad
state of affairs but that seems to be the way the industry is going.

skeez

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Post by Brian Elfert
Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
work you have ever seen. >
Brian Elfert

Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your forefathers
were immigrants.

The head of our space program that put a man on the moon is an immigrant.
More examples available if needed.
Ed

[Brian Elfert]

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by Brian Elfert
Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
work you have ever seen. >
Brian Elfert

Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your forefathers
were immigrants.

I think everyone knows what I meant. I guess I should have said illegal
immigrants or recent immigrants.

Brian Elfert

[Unisaw A100]

Post by Brian Elfert
I think everyone knows what I meant. I guess I should have said illegal
immigrants or recent immigrants.

Well Hell then, why not jump to the chase and just say
spics, greasers, or wetbacks? "Then" we'd all know
what it is "you" meant.

UA100

[George]

So were theirs. Purely a case of date.

Post by Edwin Pawlowski
Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your forefathers
were immigrants.

[Mark & Juanita]

In article <xwdUb.14374$***@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, ***@snet.net
says...

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by Brian Elfert
Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
work you have ever seen. >
Brian Elfert

Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your forefathers
were immigrants.

Actually, you can only say the American Indians were the first
immigrants.

Post by Edwin Pawlowski
The head of our space program that put a man on the moon is an immigrant.
More examples available if needed.
Ed

There does seem to be a difference between the immigrants of days gone
by and many of the current immigrants. The ones from days gone by
wanted to *become* Americans and build a better life. They adapted to
their new country while maintaining their family traditions within their
own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the
current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with the
desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of
languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our
society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is made
by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home countries.

[Larry Blanchard]

Post by Mark & Juanita
Actually, you can only say the American Indians were the first
immigrants.

Maybe. Look up Kennewick man. Boy do the Indians want to get him
reburied without further examination.

I once knew 3 process control engineers from Ghana. I told them they
were the only folks I'd ever met who were NOT immigrants :-).

[Bob Schmall]

Post by Larry Blanchard
says...

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by Brian Elfert
Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
work you have ever seen. >
Brian Elfert

Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your forefathers
were immigrants.

Actually, you can only say the American Indians were the first
immigrants.

Post by Edwin Pawlowski
The head of our space program that put a man on the moon is an immigrant.
More examples available if needed.
Ed

There does seem to be a difference between the immigrants of days gone
by and many of the current immigrants. The ones from days gone by
wanted to *become* Americans and build a better life. They adapted to
their new country while maintaining their family traditions within their
own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the
current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with the
desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of
languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our
society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is made
by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home countries.

This is precisely the historical pattern. My father heard Polish in school
until he was 9 years old; the city of Milwaukee (and many others) had
bilingual schools, German and English; the Union army in Missouri during the
Civil War was 60% German--the list goes on and on. The desire to retain
cultural traditions is strongest in the first generation of immigrants, but
by the second and especially the third they have become almost completely
assimilated within the new culture.As for sending money home, historians now
agree that somewhere around 20 percent of immigrants who came over during
the 1880-1910 wave remigrated, that is, returned to the home country. And
many immigrants sent money home, often to allow friends and family to
migrate. Last, immigrants working at low-paying jobs is precisely the
historical pattern, in part because they are the jobs that are least
attractive to the natives. For one example, check the use of Chinese labor
in building the transcontinental railroad in 1869-72

Yes, I know--you'll say "they are loafers, do shoddy work, and don't pay
their way." This is only partly true, and only of individuals. We all know
more than a few Americans who fit that image. Since the 1960s the old
pattern of immigrants paying more more in taxes than they received in state
benefits has been broken. However, the pattern of future generations
assimilating is still the norm. (Obww)

The point? Most of what you have posted is the stereotypical reaction to
immigration, with the usual false generalizations.

Bob Schmall

[Brian Elfert]

Post by Bob Schmall
This is precisely the historical pattern. My father heard Polish in school
until he was 9 years old; the city of Milwaukee (and many others) had
bilingual schools, German and English; the Union army in Missouri during the
Civil War was 60% German--the list goes on and on. The desire to retain
cultural traditions is strongest in the first generation of immigrants, but
by the second and especially the third they have become almost completely
assimilated within the new culture.As for sending money home, historians now

A lot of the immigrants coming into the USA now are doing so illegally.

The immigrants in the 1800s came here legally at least.

Brian Elfert

[Bob Schmall]

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by Bob Schmall
This is precisely the historical pattern. My father heard Polish in school
until he was 9 years old; the city of Milwaukee (and many others) had
bilingual schools, German and English; the Union army in Missouri during the
Civil War was 60% German--the list goes on and on. The desire to retain
cultural traditions is strongest in the first generation of immigrants, but
by the second and especially the third they have become almost completely
assimilated within the new culture.As for sending money home, historians now

A lot of the immigrants coming into the USA now are doing so illegally.
The immigrants in the 1800s came here legally at least.

True--which is one reason I'm opposed to Mr. Bush's proposal to make them
citizens. Another is that it's a cheap election-year ploy that will play in
the Latino community but never get passed. The illegal immigrants should
meet the same standards as any who have gone before them. I was responding
to the overt racism in the posting.

Bob

[s***@home.com]

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by Bob Schmall
This is precisely the historical pattern. My father heard Polish in school
until he was 9 years old; the city of Milwaukee (and many others) had
bilingual schools, German and English; the Union army in Missouri during the
Civil War was 60% German--the list goes on and on. The desire to retain
cultural traditions is strongest in the first generation of immigrants, but
by the second and especially the third they have become almost completely
assimilated within the new culture.As for sending money home, historians now

A lot of the immigrants coming into the USA now are doing so illegally.
The immigrants in the 1800s came here legally at least.
Brian Elfert

and they were willing to learn the language. skeez

[Unisaw A100]

Post by Brian Elfert
The immigrants in the 1800s came here legally at least.

And some even got to come here against their will.

Imagine that. Not wanting to come to such a swell place as
this.

UA100

[Wes Stewart]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:31:09 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <***@snet.net>
wrote:

|
|"Brian Elfert" <***@visi.com> wrote in message
|>
|> Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
|> owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
|> work you have ever seen. >
|> Brian Elfert
|
|Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your forefathers
|were immigrants.

Actually, even if you are an American Indian your ancestors were
immigrants. There is no evidence of human evolution in the new world.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Post by Wes Stewart
Actually, even if you are an American Indian your ancestors were
immigrants. There is no evidence of human evolution in the new world.

But that would mean they "discovered" America and we'd lose Columbus Day as
a holiday. In the third grade Mrs. Price taught me that Chris found us so it
MUST be right.
Ed

[Everett M. Greene]

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by Brian Elfert
Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
work you have ever seen. >
Brian Elfert

Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian,
your forefathers were immigrants.
The head of our space program that put a man on the moon is an immigrant.
More examples available if needed.

American natives are immigrants from Asia. Humans appear to
have first appeared in Africa where they evolved from something
else. All living organisms evolved from a primordal stew. The
primordal stew may have started from comets crashing into Earth.

How far back do we want to trace to determine ancestry?

[Mike]

Welcome to the new world order.......Why do we keep electing these same
people year after year who do nothing but accept special interest
contributions, take care of them selves, and continue to sell us out?

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by s***@home.com
i will second that! i am not in the IT feild. I am in construction so
its different. my job is not going overseas but all the imigrants are
taking the construction jobs now because they are willing to work
cheap. wages are dropping because of this but the cost of living is

Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
work you have ever seen. Almost everything has been redone at least once.
My friend has spent 10s of thousands on repairs to a new house. Last I
heard, the stucco was being replaced because no expansion joints were
used.
I worked with a group of Hmong cutting grass in the 80s. They expended
more effort figuring out how not to do work than actually working.
Luckily, it was a drought year and there wasn't any grass to cut.
Brian Elfert

[Mark & Juanita]

Post by Mike
Welcome to the new world order.......Why do we keep electing these same
people year after year who do nothing but accept special interest
contributions, take care of them selves, and continue to sell us out?

I'm not sure how much of this you can blame on government vs. behavior
patterns of our citizenry. Protectionism never works -- looking back at
the luddites and others who opposed the industrial revolution or looking
at the quality of goods produced in countries with protected industries
shows that such behaviors only have short-term benefits and long-term
detriments.

I have no idea what the answer is, but I don't think looking to
government to solve the problem is the answer.

[Larry Blanchard]

Post by Mark & Juanita
I'm not sure how much of this you can blame on government vs. behavior
patterns of our citizenry. Protectionism never works -- looking back at
the luddites and others who opposed the industrial revolution or looking
at the quality of goods produced in countries with protected industries
shows that such behaviors only have short-term benefits and long-term
detriments.

Take another look. The Luddites were not protectionists per se, they
were anti-technology. As were those who opposed th4 industrial
revolution.

And the reason that protected industries tend to produce shoddy goods is
that they're not subject to competition within their own country, not
because of protection against foreign goods. Look at our auto industry.
When GM and Ford and Chrysler controlled the market, they all went
downhill because they cooperated more than they competed. And we've all
heard endless stories about price-fixing in a lot of industries.

So saying that protectionism doesn't work is somewhat akin to
Chesterton's famous quote "Christianity has not been tried and found
wanting, it's still wanting to be tried." :-).

And I repeat my previous assertion that the major problem we face is
preserving our independence. How do you fight a war if all your
steel/oil/electronics is imported from a country that becomes, or favors,
your enemy?

[David Hall]

Post by Larry Blanchard
And I repeat my previous assertion that the major problem we face is
preserving our independence. How do you fight a war if all your
steel/oil/electronics is imported from a country that becomes, or favors,
your enemy?

You know, I hear this periodically as an argument in this culture war.
Whether any or all other arguments against imports are valid or not I
don't know, but I find this one rather silly.

What kind of a war can you imagine that would have all the
manufacturering countries against us and be so protracted in actual
battle that we use up all of our tanks, airplanes and guns, yet we
don't call an end to it by using the nukes?

I find it difficult to imagine an all-out, protracted, conventional
battlefield war like WWII occuring. The type of serious attacks and
battles that would require would rapidly escalate to where one side or
the other would threaten nukes and some negotiated stand-off would
happen (or the nukes would actually be used).

I think you are planning the last war - which often gets nations in
trouble.

Dave Hall

[Larry Blanchard]

Post by David Hall

Post by Larry Blanchard
And I repeat my previous assertion that the major problem we face is
preserving our independence. How do you fight a war if all your
steel/oil/electronics is imported from a country that becomes, or favors,
your enemy?

What kind of a war can you imagine that would have all the
manufacturering countries against us and be so protracted in actual
battle that we use up all of our tanks, airplanes and guns, yet we
don't call an end to it by using the nukes?

Ouch! So it's no problem 'cause we could always nuke 'em? Great
solution!

Post by David Hall
I think you are planning the last war - which often gets nations in
trouble.

Could be, but I hope the next one is more like that than like the nuclear
you envision. And don't forget that a country, or group of countries,
can exert a lot of pressure without war. Did we threaten to nuke the
Arabs over the oil embargo?

[Frank Ketchum]

Post by Mark & Juanita
I have no idea what the answer is, but I don't think looking to
government to solve the problem is the answer.

Agreed, but it would be nice if they would stop making the problem worse.

Frank

[George]

Not so sure about other employee-owned outfits, but I do know that the state
employee unions and our teachers' union members would rather see their
"brothers" laid off than forego their raises in a time of tight money.

What was it the beggar said to Tev'e in Fiddler on the roof, when given one
kopeck?
"One kopeck, last week you gave me two kopecks."

"I had a bad week."

"Because you had a bad week, I should suffer?"

"Jim Bailey" <***@jbaileygroupANDTHIS.com> wrote in message
news:d6cUb.16258

Post by Jim Bailey
Back on topic - I like Wes's idea a few posts back. Isn't there at least a
couple of employee owned airlines that are doing pretty well? Why not a
tool company ?

[Everett M. Greene]

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by Frank Ketchum

Post by Brian Elfert
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.

Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
Just how much potential is there in the services sector?

I don't like all the manufacturing jobs going overseas, but it is
happening. I try to buy USA made where possible but some stuff is almost
impossible to find made in the USA. I can't always afford to spend a day
or two trying to find an item made in the USA.
In another decade or so, we won't have any IT jobs left in the USA.
Everything will be farmed out to India. With the Internet, all the
servers will get moved to India. The only computers left in the USA will
be desktops that are maintained by a very small workforce.
I fully expect to be out of a job in 5 to 10 years as server
administration gets farmed out overseas to save money.

There's no doubt that capitalism and international trade are
great economic levellers. However, the level may well be
quite low if nobody can afford to buy the products that are
being produced (cheaply).

[s***@home.com]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 16:03:50 GMT, "Frank Ketchum"

Post by Frank Ketchum

Post by Brian Elfert
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.

Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
Frank

they wont worry bout it till its thier jobs that are lost and they
have to downsize that great big high dollar house they bought. does
anyone realy think they will be able to afford to live here in the
style they have become accustomed to on the wages that are paid for
services????? i think not.

skeez

[Larry Blanchard]

Post by Frank Ketchum

Post by Brian Elfert
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.

Electricians and plumbers are doing OK :-).

Post by Frank Ketchum
Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
Just how much potential is there in the services sector?

That's not the problem. The problem is our growing dependency on the
rest of the world. It's hard to stay independent when your
tank/jeep/halftrack/etc engines are all made elsewhere, just to pick an
example.

[Ron Magen]

Can you say, "Do you want fries with that ?"

Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Frank Ketchum" <***@earthlinknospam.net> wrote in message news:GJ8Ub.12809$***@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
SNIP
Do we really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing
anything?

Post by Frank Ketchum
Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
Frank

[Bridger]

Post by Brian Elfert
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
Brian Elfert

hell, if they're sending handsaws to japan to be sharpened,(apparently
'cause us 'murricanz is too dumb to do it) sending your car to
singapore for a tune up can't be far off.

Bridger

[Brian Elfert]

Post by Bridger
hell, if they're sending handsaws to japan to be sharpened,(apparently
'cause us 'murricanz is too dumb to do it) sending your car to
singapore for a tune up can't be far off.

Yes, sir, we can get your car tuned up in India for only $5. The bad news
is that shipping will be $600 and your car will be gone for five weeks.

I doubt anyone is sending a handsaw to Japan for sharpening to save money.
Wages there are as just as high as here. The Japanese can probably do a
better job and shipping a hand saw is pretty darn cheap compared to a car.

Brian Ekfert

[Bridger]

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by Bridger
hell, if they're sending handsaws to japan to be sharpened,(apparently
'cause us 'murricanz is too dumb to do it) sending your car to
singapore for a tune up can't be far off.

Yes, sir, we can get your car tuned up in India for only $5. The bad news
is that shipping will be $600 and your car will be gone for five weeks.
I doubt anyone is sending a handsaw to Japan for sharpening to save money.
Wages there are as just as high as here. The Japanese can probably do a
better job and shipping a hand saw is pretty darn cheap compared to a car.
Brian Ekfert

yeah, but for the tune up all we have to ship are the engine and
brakes. the rest gets parked in a container somewhere....


<G>

[Mike]

Brian:

In the wonderful world of corporate greed, some mba asshole accountant type
will figure out it is cheaper to fly some guy over from India to fix your
car or truck. The first step in the right direction is one term limits for
congress and outlawing special interest groups from lobbying.

Mike
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a

Post by Brian Elfert
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
Brian Elfert

[Mark and Kim Smith]

<snip>
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
Brian Elfert

I must be heading in the right direction then. I am an auto AND truck
mechanic!

[Lawrence A. Ramsey]

If Bush REALLY wanted to help the economy, he would ONLY give us a tax
cut when we submit PROOF that we bought that much in American Made
products. Not "assembled" but MADE in the USA.
That would help. I have been looking for a job for almost a year. I am
a college graduate and am having to compete with people who have
written grants and published for $22,000 a year jobs. When they show
up (rarely). That's a "good" economy? Of course, this is Arkansas.

Post by SteveC1280
More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
candidates push for a buy American movement.
Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.

[Walker]

If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up the
gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?

Post by Lawrence A. Ramsey
If Bush REALLY wanted to help the economy, he would ONLY give us a tax
cut when we submit PROOF that we bought that much in American Made
products. Not "assembled" but MADE in the USA.
That would help. I have been looking for a job for almost a year. I am
a college graduate and am having to compete with people who have
written grants and published for $22,000 a year jobs. When they show
up (rarely). That's a "good" economy? Of course, this is Arkansas.

Post by SteveC1280
More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
candidates push for a buy American movement.
Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Post by Walker
If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up the
gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?

What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want to
do?

[s***@home.com]

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by Walker
If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up

the

Post by Walker
gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?

What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want to
do?

hate to burst your bubble here BUT they are and have been over the
past few years taking jobs from plummers, electritions, framers, trim
people, hardware installers, firemen, policemen, tile setters,
flooring installers, ect. ect. ect..........all forms of construction
are being performed by illegals and our manufacturing and textile jobs
are being moved overseas because of our gov. doing away with tariffs
and greedy execs seeing larger profit margins for themselves. oh BTW
lets not forget all the HIGH TECK jobs leaving for dirt cheep wages
too! sorry but they aint just mowing lawns and picking crops anymore.
skeez

[kenR]

In article <DIbUb.14234$***@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, ***@snet.net
says...

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by Walker
If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up

the

Post by Walker
gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?

What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want to
do?

Around here, about half of the building framers appear to be from south
of the border. On the bright side, we have a steady supply of taco
trucks for a tasty lunch.

[Wes Stewart]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:27:31 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <***@snet.net>
pushed a hot button:


|What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want to
|do?

Nothing personal Ed but...

Your's is the tired argument that wetbacks and other criminal
immigrants are only taking the jobs that Americans won't take. Nooo,
they are taking the jobs that Americans won't take at the depressed
wages that the illegals will work for.

Curiously, somehow in the past all of this work got done without this
"cheap" labor.

Furthermore, if the *total* economic picture is looked at, this cheap
labor isn't so cheap. For example, let's say that the local Mexican
restaurant hires some illegals as dishwashers and busboys (try and
find one that doesn't).

Since these employees are "off the books" and can't complain, they are
paid a depressed wage. (They also have no standards of cleanliness or
personal hygiene, but that's another story.)

So because "Juan" instead of John, the American teenager, is in the
kitchen doing dishes, my plate of tacos costs me a little less. But
does it really?

To get to his job, Juan buys a beater of an automobile but he doesn't
bother to get a driver's license or insurance. To protect myself
against loss in case Juan crashes into my car I am required to buy
uninsured-motorist insurance. Neither Juan nor the owner of the
restaurant helps me out with the premiums. My tacos just got a little
pricier.

Now that he's established, Juan decides to smuggle his pregnant wife
to the US. She crosses the border with eighteen other people in the
back of a pickup truck. The Border Patrol stumbles upon them and
tries to stop the truck. The driver flees only to overturn and
scatter his passengers over the countryside. Four people are killed
and many others are seriously injured. The Border Patrol requests
three medivac helicopters and six ambulances to the scene.

(I am not making this up; it happens frequently in Southern Arizona)

The victims are taken to the one remaining trauma center for care.
The other two trauma centers in this community of a million people
have all been closed because of the costs of treating illegal aliens
drove them out of business. The Border Patrol doesn't arrest any of
illegals until after they have been released from medical care (if
even then). This is well-publicized policy on their part. This is
because if they make the arrests before medical care is given, the
federal government must pay for it. In this, and every other case,
the local taxpayers pay the costs. Add some more hidden cost to the
price of tacos.

(I am not making this up either)

Now while Juan's wife Maria, is in the hospital, little Nino Jesus is
born. It was a difficult pregnancy; Jesus arrives prematurely and
requires a couple of months of intensive care. No problem, the local
taxpayers pick up the tab. Jesus is automatically an American citizen
and thus is due the largess the welfare state can provide. (Actually,
Jesus doesn't have to be a citizen to get these goodies).

Now that Juan and Maria are the parents of an American citizen they
get to hang around and get aid to dependent children, free medical
care (free to them anyway, my tacos just got even more expensive) and
subsidized housing. They will lots of support from "activist" groups
that hand-wring over their "rights."

When little Jesus goes to school he will be furnished special
education and English as a Second (!) Language classes since his
parents, unlike all of the other immigrants to this country before
them, decided that they don't really need to learn English to get by
and speak nothing but Spanish to Jesus.

When Jesus is old enough to vote, he will be provided a ballot in
Spanish and can elect a Hispanic congressman. This will be easy
because the courts have dictated that there should be a "minority
majority" congressional district, created to insure that minority
votes are not "diluted." (Regrettably, I'm not making this up
either.)

Never mind that Non-Hispanic votes (one of them mine) are diluted by
this practice. Besides, they are working two jobs trying to keep up
with their property tax bills and shouldn't be taking off work to vote
anyway.

All of this for a plate of "cheap" tacos.

ps. Before I'm labeled as a xenophobic, culturally insensitive bigot,
I must confess that I was married to an American-born Hispanic woman
for 16 years.



|

[Charlie Self]

Post by Wes Stewart
Your's is the tired argument that wetbacks and other criminal
immigrants are only taking the jobs that Americans won't take. Nooo,
they are taking the jobs that Americans won't take at the depressed
wages that the illegals will work for.
Curiously, somehow in the past all of this work got done without this
"cheap" labor.

Yeah, it did. With cheap labor because of the depression and cheap labor
because there is always an underclass that is uneducated and trying to work its
way out of poverty (at least some members are). Read some stories of the Okies
and others during the '30s. Check out the life of migrant laborers in the '40s,
'50s, '60s and '70s before foreign cheap labor took over.

The only thing that has changed about that end of the labor market is the
accent, and the fact of a border crossing. Pay is still terrible. Living
conditions are bad.

If someone is going to pay you 3 bucks an hour for stoop labor in the Salinas
Valley and you discover you can make $7 an hour framing houses, you're going
find a way to buy a hammer, saw and framing square regardless of your origins.

I agree with much of what you're saying, but the problem you note is visible
but not the major problem out side the southwest. It does need correction,
including the need for non-English speaking immigrants to learn the language of
the country they're IN rather than their expecting the country to learn their
language. Eventually, of course, these illegals sift into other areas,
increasing the tax loads there.

The true problem with job loss comes with corporations that have no loyalty to
anything but money, and even then have an ability only to do short term
planning: many are the type known as multi-national, but too many companies
exporting jobs are plain, ol' American. It isn't the loss of true bottom end
jobs that we bemoan and that we're missing. It has been probably 30 years since
many Americans would do that work.

Hell, even the government is screwed up over the causes and effects. A year or
two ago, the U.S. Army picked up a Chinese bid to make the black berets that
the Army leadership was stupid enough to think would make ever soldier a
Special Forces type. The order was returned to a U.S. company because of the
hullaballoo, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find it is now
overseas somewhere. Uniform bits of that type are relativley unimportant, but
it does lead one to wonder how much of our critical hardware is produced by
overseas companies that might be affected by THEIR government's intervention
should that government disapprove of U.S. behavior in any arena.

But, basically, it's not the loss of minimum wage jobs that is killing the U.S.
It is the loss of manufacturing and other jobs work (including service industry
jobs: how many of you recently have had a person with a slight sing-song accent
answer a computer help line? How many of you have gotten any help from said
person? The major skill seems to be an ability to say "I'm sorry, I don't have
that information" with great sincerity).

The problem is more pervasive that immigrant labor, though the illegal end of
that is enough of a problem all by itself. Ah well. Bush is going to make it
all well. Make the illegals legal (nothing like a good reward for commiting a
felony as you enter your adopted country) and let the real influx begin.
Anything to get that massive Hisppanic vote.

Post by Wes Stewart
ps. Before I'm labeled as a xenophobic, culturally insensitive bigot,
I must confess that I was married to an American-born Hispanic woman
for 16 years.

Hell, I was married to a Presbyterian for nearly 20 years. That doesn't make me
like other Presbyterians more, though I sure as hell would keep a wary eye on
'em after that experience.

Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

[Wes Stewart]

On 05 Feb 2004 08:53:41 GMT, ***@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

[snipped many good points]

I don't what to perpetuate this OT much longer, but a coupla more
comments.

|I agree with much of what you're saying, but the problem you note is visible
|but not the major problem out side the southwest.

The problem is coming to a town near you.
|
|The problem is more pervasive that immigrant labor, though the illegal end of
|that is enough of a problem all by itself. Ah well. Bush is going to make it
|all well. Make the illegals legal (nothing like a good reward for commiting a
|felony as you enter your adopted country) and let the real influx begin.
|Anything to get that massive Hisppanic vote.

I am a life-long Republican who cast my first presidential vote for
Barry Goldwater. (Clearly at 21 I was wise beyond my years.[g] My
liberal Jewish boss at the time told me that if I voted for Barry we
would wind up bombing N. Vietnam. He was a smart guy. I voted for
Barry and sure enough we bombed N. Vietnam.)

I am also one of those "safe" votes that President Bush takes for
granted (and thus ignores): white, middle-class, male Republican.

President Bush has done a lot of crap that I dislike (too much to list
here) but the issue that pushes me over the edge is this BS of
"legalizing" the illegal aliens in a pathetic, transparent attempt to
pander for votes. He's going to need them because I'm going to vote
for a Democrat for the first time.

|>
|>ps. Before I'm labeled as a xenophobic, culturally insensitive bigot,
|>I must confess that I was married to an American-born Hispanic woman
|>for 16 years.
|>
|
|Hell, I was married to a Presbyterian for nearly 20 years. That doesn't make me
|like other Presbyterians more, though I sure as hell would keep a wary eye on
|'em after that experience.
|
Point taken.


Wes Stewart

[Mark]

Post by Wes Stewart
[snipped many good points]
I don't what to perpetuate this OT much longer, but a coupla more
comments.
|I agree with much of what you're saying, but the problem you note is visible
|but not the major problem out side the southwest.
The problem is coming to a town near you.

Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal immigration are
until it's your job their shit canning.

And in this country when your shit canned you lose your voice. What you have to
say no longer matters. Don't believe me? Pretend to be unemployed. Watch people
act like it's contagious.

Continue with the Pollyanna act and when you find yourself on the outside
looking in it will be too late to do anything about it.

And if you think your immune, think again.


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)

[WD]

Post by Mark
Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal immigration are
until it's your job their shit canning.

Serious, how about shipping Americans overseas to where Americans'
jobs had gone?



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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[s***@home.com]

Post by WD

Post by Mark
Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal immigration are
until it's your job their shit canning.

Serious, how about shipping Americans overseas to where Americans'
jobs had gone?
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

have you seen the living conditions elswhere? no thanks. i like it
here. do you know how the laws work elseware? no thanks, i like it
here. large corps are getting the best from both worlds at our
expense. labor cheap there sell for huge profit her. only problem is
sooner or later they wont be able to sell it here because noone here
will be able to afford it. skeez

[Carver33]

Post by WD

Post by Mark
Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal immigration are
until it's your job their shit canning.

Serious, how about shipping Americans overseas to where Americans'
jobs had gone?

Hell, they wouldn't ship the jobs overseas if all of the employees
would go to the owners and offer to work for ten cents on the dollar.

[Joe Willmann]

Post by Charlie Self
The true problem with job loss comes with corporations that have no
loyalty to anything but money, and even then have an ability only to
do short term planning: many are the type known as multi-national, but
too many companies exporting jobs are plain, ol' American. It isn't
the loss of true bottom end jobs that we bemoan and that we're
missing. It has been probably 30 years since many Americans would do
that work.

BZZZZZ. Wrong.

The true problem isn't with corporate america it is with Americans.
Corporate America does what it does to maximize profits. Why? Because
the stockholders demand it. Who are these evil stockholders that force
our corporations to outsource high paying jobs to low wage countries?
You YOU and ME. We all have 401Ks now. We are all in the "market" one
way or the other.

Now why is there illegal immagration? The same answer as above. It is
because of you and me. Why? Because when we go grocery shopping we
shop for the lowest price goods. If farmers could pay $10.00 an hour
for orange pickers then oranges would cost $10.00 a pound at the grocery
store instead of $0.99. You want to end the demand for cheap labor then
get off your but and stop demanding low cost goods.

I made a workbench for a friends grandson. It was a fun project and I
did it for the fun of it. When I got done I had 20 hours of labor in it
and $50.00 in materials. She gave me $125.00 for it. Why? Because she
could go out and buy a store bought one simular that was made in China
for about the same amount. So I made 75/20 or $3.75 an hour. To have
made a "living wage" off of it I would have had to charge $250 - $300 of
of it. There is no way that a "toy" her grandson is going to beat on
with a hammer is worth that.

Do don't blame the illegal imagrants, or corporate America, blame
yourself - all of you/us are the problem.

The next time you shop a sale, or purchase a product based on price then
just remember you are the cause.

By the way - all of the "you"s in this are the global you, not
charliediy.

[Brian Elfert]

Post by Joe Willmann
Now why is there illegal immagration? The same answer as above. It is
because of you and me. Why? Because when we go grocery shopping we
shop for the lowest price goods. If farmers could pay $10.00 an hour
for orange pickers then oranges would cost $10.00 a pound at the grocery
store instead of $0.99. You want to end the demand for cheap labor then
get off your but and stop demanding low cost goods.

If the price of oranges would go up 1000% if the farmer paid $10/hr, they
must be paying the pickers about $.01/hour. The percentage of the retail
price of an orange that goes to farm labor is probably less 3%.

Brian Elfert

[s***@home.com]

Post by Joe Willmann
BZZZZZ. Wrong.
The true problem isn't with corporate america it is with Americans.
Corporate America does what it does to maximize profits. Why? Because
the stockholders demand it. Who are these evil stockholders that force
our corporations to outsource high paying jobs to low wage countries?
You YOU and ME. We all have 401Ks now. We are all in the "market" one
way or the other.
Now why is there illegal immagration? The same answer as above. It is
because of you and me. Why? Because when we go grocery shopping we
shop for the lowest price goods. If farmers could pay $10.00 an hour
for orange pickers then oranges would cost $10.00 a pound at the grocery
store instead of $0.99. You want to end the demand for cheap labor then
get off your but and stop demanding low cost goods.
I made a workbench for a friends grandson. It was a fun project and I
did it for the fun of it. When I got done I had 20 hours of labor in it
and $50.00 in materials. She gave me $125.00 for it. Why? Because she
could go out and buy a store bought one simular that was made in China
for about the same amount. So I made 75/20 or $3.75 an hour. To have
made a "living wage" off of it I would have had to charge $250 - $300 of
of it. There is no way that a "toy" her grandson is going to beat on
with a hammer is worth that.
Do don't blame the illegal imagrants, or corporate America, blame
yourself - all of you/us are the problem.
The next time you shop a sale, or purchase a product based on price then
just remember you are the cause.
By the way - all of the "you"s in this are the global you, not
charliediy.

hm.. ive realy tried to see your reasoning but it makes no sense. the
reason it makes no sense is because of the differen values of the
dollar. people working in say pakistan can and do work for much less
money than we do here because the us dollar is worth much more in
pakistan than it is here. our minimum home in my area is around
100,000 dollars but the minimum home in pakistan is probly 10% of that
so those folks are living just as good on the money they make as we
are on what we make. those illegals that come here are willling to
live with 4 or 5 or more families under the same roof. are you? am i?
i think not. they come from poverty so those living conditions are a
huge step up for them. us corporations only concider the bottom line.
they do not care about their workers needs only the bottom line. sad
but true. if they can cut prodution costs by 50% then that 50% goes in
their pockets not ours. sure the stockholders make a little but not
nearly as much as the corporate execs. if you think your 401k is gonna
suport you when you are too old to work think again my friend. with
inflation you will likley need a second income just to keep your home
much less eat. i dont know what the answer is either but at the rate
we are going there will no longer be a middle class in this country
before too long. there will be rich and poor period. and without the
working middle class we are doomed. skeez

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Post by Wes Stewart
|What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want to
|do?
Nothing personal Ed but...
Your's is the tired argument that wetbacks and other criminal
immigrants are only taking the jobs that Americans won't take. Nooo,
they are taking the jobs that Americans won't take at the depressed
wages that the illegals will work for.
Curiously, somehow in the past all of this work got done without this
"cheap" labor.

Wes, I agree with your facts about illegals having babies and costing us
money. There are, however, jobs that are low paying and a lot of people
just won't do them today. I can assure you also, that I am not the person
with all the answers to correct this.

I manage a small company with 20 employees. We need 35 employees. What we
need are people to do a low skilled job with a correspondingly low pay. It
is above minimum wage, it offers holidays, vacation, health insurance, 401k.
Qualifications are to be able to look at parts and know a good one from a
bad one (we'll show you how), be able to write the date and shift, and show
up pretty much every day. We are located in a small town (pop. 12,000) in
New England, surrounded by other small towns.

I can't find people. We must use a temp labor service to bring people from
out of the area. They are legal immigrants or aliens (the agency says so),
some speak English, but that is not required. They work for less than $9 an
hour. The locals are either not interested in these jobs, or they are not
qualified. I don't hire high school dropouts because most are bozos that
don't show up. Or just don't give a damn about what they are doing. (a
whole other topics of discussion)

Can we pay more? Subject to debate I guess, but more money is not getting
us any better applicants. We are in a very competitive business and can't
raise prices to pay for more labor. We can't move to another cheaper area
because the freight cost of the product will far exceed any savings. Our
business region is limited to about 250 miles.

Many of the applicants I get want to drive a fork lift truck and get paid
$15/hr. Others come from the closed down GM plant that paid $20+ per hour.

Without the recent immigrants, we could not run our business. Some of these
people do not speak English but communicate very well. They are not stupid,
they work and give an honest days work. We treat them the same as our full
time employees. Same breaks, same free coffee, they are invited to our
summer picnic, etc. Our intention is to have them as workers at a fair
wage, not to exploit them. The temp agency helps them with transportation.
We have been able to hire a couple as full time employees, some are not
interested.

Ed

[Brian Elfert]

Post by Edwin Pawlowski
need are people to do a low skilled job with a correspondingly low pay. It
is above minimum wage, it offers holidays, vacation, health insurance, 401k.
Qualifications are to be able to look at parts and know a good one from a
bad one (we'll show you how), be able to write the date and shift, and show
up pretty much every day. We are located in a small town (pop. 12,000) in
New England, surrounded by other small towns.
I can't find people. We must use a temp labor service to bring people from

Gee, you can't find people who want to work for near poverty level wages?
You don't say what you pay, but you think $15/hour is too high, so your
wages can't be very much.

I know everyone can't work for $20 to $30 an hour, but around $10 an hour
is very much on the low end for a full time job. Who needs a 401k when
they can't afford to put anything into it?

Brian Elfert

[CW]

Post by Brian Elfert
Gee, you can't find people who want to work for near poverty level wages?
You don't say what you pay, but you think $15/hour is too high, so your
wages can't be very much.

Yes, he did say what he paid. "Less than $9 dollars an hour".

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Post by Brian Elfert
Gee, you can't find people who want to work for near poverty level wages?
You don't say what you pay, but you think $15/hour is too high, so your
wages can't be very much.
I know everyone can't work for $20 to $30 an hour, but around $10 an hour
is very much on the low end for a full time job. Who needs a 401k when
they can't afford to put anything into it?
Brian Elfert

OK, the wages are not $20 an hour, but the skill level needed is a 1 on a
scale of 1 to 10. You need more skill and training to work stocking shelves
at a grocery store or flipping burgers. What is that worth on the open
market?

As for not putting anything in the 401k, I do know for a fact that one of
these guys has about $100,000 in value in his. Not bad for a HS grad in his
20's with little skills.

If we paid $15 or $20 for the work, a tradesman or carpenter would be
getting paid $80 + benefits or so to be in scale. If we paid that rate,
we'd also be out of business. We are very much in line with our competition
in the region. Our skilled workers get a higher rate, again, competitive
with the best around.

You have to put everything in perspective. There are many companies that
pay less for higher work demand. This is far from "sweat shop" conditions.
We sometimes hire people that come here because it is a big increase from
their minimum wage job and think they are doing well. They are for their
abilities.
Ed

[Brian Elfert]

Post by Edwin Pawlowski
As for not putting anything in the 401k, I do know for a fact that one of
these guys has about $100,000 in value in his. Not bad for a HS grad in his
20's with little skills.

This guy must have played the market very well or is living on virtually
nothing if he has put away $100,000 working at $9/hr. He is probably the
exception and not the norm for $9/hr workers.

Post by Edwin Pawlowski
If we paid $15 or $20 for the work, a tradesman or carpenter would be
getting paid $80 + benefits or so to be in scale. If we paid that rate,
we'd also be out of business. We are very much in line with our competition

I'm sure the competition is paying the same. You were complaining you
can't find workers. Paying $9 a hour probably explains most of it right
there.

It would be extremely difficult to raise a family on $9 an hour, no matter
how low the cost of living.

Brian Elfert

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Post by Brian Elfert
This guy must have played the market very well or is living on virtually
nothing if he has put away $100,000 working at $9/hr. He is probably the
exception and not the norm for $9/hr workers.

Maybe, but he is if fact worth that much. Some of the money comes from
profit sharing and some comes from the 50% matching funds.

Post by Brian Elfert
I'm sure the competition is paying the same. You were complaining you
can't find workers. Paying $9 a hour probably explains most of it right
there.

It is a part ofit, but I have a difficult time getting workers at higher
wages at times. Put an ad in the paper and get two respones. Employment in
this area is not too bad overall. People with skills are able to use them.
Sure, they may make $15, $20 or $30 an h our, but they h ave the skills and
knowledge to earn it. I'm not trying to hire bankers or machinist to do
unskilled jobs. My point was that there is a need for people to fill those
spots. The locals are over qualified.
Ed

[Charlie Self]

Post by Brian Elfert
I'm sure the competition is paying the same. You were complaining you
can't find workers. Paying $9 a hour probably explains most of it right
there.
It would be extremely difficult to raise a family on $9 an hour, no matter
how low the cost of living.

Uh, you mean it's not up to the worker to learn more, work harder, get more
money. He should just walk in and get top salary with no experience, no skills?

This is an ENTRY level job, for chrissakes. You're not supposed to make enough
to raise a family with an entry level job when your entry level includes
neither experience nor education.

Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

[Brian Elfert]

Post by Charlie Self
Uh, you mean it's not up to the worker to learn more, work harder, get more
money. He should just walk in and get top salary with no experience, no skills?
This is an ENTRY level job, for chrissakes. You're not supposed to make enough
to raise a family with an entry level job when your entry level includes
neither experience nor education.

How much skill or education does it really take to work on an auto
assembly line and they get paid a lot more than $9/hr.

The original poster was wondering why he couldn't find workers for $9/hr.
Not being able to support a family on $9/hr is one reason he can't find
workers.

I worked at the Minnesota State Fair cutting grass for $4 or $5 an hour
back in the late 80s/early 90s. Most of the workers were lazy bums and
management complained all the time about the lousy workers. What did they
expect when they paid bottom dollar? I could have made somewhat more
elsewhere, but the hours at the fair were great and I was in high
school/college.

Brian Elfert

[Joe Willmann]

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by Charlie Self
Uh, you mean it's not up to the worker to learn more, work harder, get
more money. He should just walk in and get top salary with no
experience, no skills?
This is an ENTRY level job, for chrissakes. You're not supposed to
make enough to raise a family with an entry level job when your entry
level includes neither experience nor education.

How much skill or education does it really take to work on an auto
assembly line and they get paid a lot more than $9/hr.
The original poster was wondering why he couldn't find workers for
$9/hr. Not being able to support a family on $9/hr is one reason he
can't find workers.
I worked at the Minnesota State Fair cutting grass for $4 or $5 an
hour back in the late 80s/early 90s. Most of the workers were lazy
bums and management complained all the time about the lousy workers.
What did they expect when they paid bottom dollar? I could have made
somewhat more elsewhere, but the hours at the fair were great and I
was in high school/college.
Brian Elfert

Let me see. The guy has 35 employees making $9.00. If he raises his
prices so that he can pay them more then we cheap Americans won't buy
his product so he goes out of buisness. Then there are 35 people on
unemployement.

Hmmmmmm, sounds like a good trade to me.

[Charlie Self]

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by Edwin Pawlowski
need are people to do a low skilled job with a correspondingly low pay. It
is above minimum wage, it offers holidays, vacation, health insurance, 401k.
Qualifications are to be able to look at parts and know a good one from a
bad one (we'll show you how), be able to write the date and shift, and show
up pretty much every day. We are located in a small town (pop. 12,000) in
New England, surrounded by other small towns.
I can't find people. We must use a temp labor service to bring people from

Gee, you can't find people who want to work for near poverty level wages?
You don't say what you pay, but you think $15/hour is too high, so your
wages can't be very much.
I know everyone can't work for $20 to $30 an hour, but around $10 an hour
is very much on the low end for a full time job. Who needs a 401k when
they can't afford to put anything into it?

You should check out this area. People who get 9 bucks an hour are in the
middle to high range, and jobs that pay much more than that are disappearing at
a high rate of speed.

I listen to Bush talk about how the economy is improving, then pick up that
morning's newspaper with another 110 jobs gone, down from the 350 that went
last week and down from the 1100 expected to go in the following week. But,
hey, there's a new Eagle store staffing downtown--where a Big Bear went broke.

Of course 15 bucks an hour isn't too high, but how much are you going to pay a
person for looking at a part to see if it has obvious faults? A 401K may not be
the hot set up at 8-9 bucks an hour, but that health insurance is one helluva
come-on for many people. And that pay rate may not be fantastic, but in a lot
of areas in this country, it's a livable wage, a good spot to start out, if not
a great place to end up.

Or are we all supposed to walk into a job and get paid what everyone else,
including those there 15-20-25 years, is paid?

That low end payment is highly variable across the U.S. I can see jobs in some
areas that I'd love to have at $50,000 a year, but there's not a single chance
in a million you could entice me to California, for instance, for double that
kind of money.


Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

[CW]

Some of it is that, and that's fine. But that's only the part of the story
they want to tell you. I know a number of carpenters around here that are
having a very hard time even considering the amount of building they are
doing (considerable). Reason for that is that contractors are hiring
Mexicans. If they are illegal, that's better as far as they are concerned
since they don't dare complain about low pay, lack of benifits and no
overtime pay.
Of course, workmanship is going to crap along with that but who cares. The
contractors are making money.

Post by Edwin Pawlowski
What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want to
do?

[s***@home.com]

Post by CW
Some of it is that, and that's fine. But that's only the part of the story
they want to tell you. I know a number of carpenters around here that are
having a very hard time even considering the amount of building they are
doing (considerable). Reason for that is that contractors are hiring
Mexicans. If they are illegal, that's better as far as they are concerned
since they don't dare complain about low pay, lack of benifits and no
overtime pay.
Of course, workmanship is going to crap along with that but who cares. The
contractors are making money.

same here. skeez

[gabriel]

Post by s***@home.com

Post by CW
Of course, workmanship is going to crap along with that but who cares.
The contractors are making money.

same here. skeez

Don't be hypocrits. The making more money thing is temporary until a
price war breaks out. This usually happens very soon in competitive
industries. Once a proce war is on, the prices come down and everyone is
happy because they paid less.

Just look at WalMart, they truly have lower prices, and part of the
reason is that they hired a cheaper company that hired illegal immigrant
labor.

The moral of the story: Americans, by shopping in droves at WalMart, are
causing this on themselves. There's not other way about it. Companies
are not going to complain about getting cheap labor, specially if they
expand their marketshare. It is up to the citizens (who are too busy
shopping at WalMart) to initiate the reform.

The big, big losers in this are unskilled (or low-skilled) american
workers whcih are being replaced by cheap labor. Both here and abroad.
The bad thing is that skilled jobs are also leaving the country, and
americans do not cry about that at all.

[Unisaw A100]

Post by Walker
If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up the
gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I know this one!

PURPLE!!!

UA100

[Charlie Self]

Post by Unisaw A100

Post by Walker
If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up the
gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I know this one!
PURPLE!!!

Wrong! Three chimes.

Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html

[Unisaw A100]

Post by Charlie Self
Wrong! Three chimes.
Charlie Self

damn...

UA100

[Greg Layton]

Post by Walker
If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up the
gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?

Post by Lawrence A. Ramsey
If Bush REALLY wanted to help the economy, he would ONLY give us a tax
cut when we submit PROOF that we bought that much in American Made
products. Not "assembled" but MADE in the USA.
That would help. I have been looking for a job for almost a year. I am
a college graduate and am having to compete with people who have
written grants and published for $22,000 a year jobs. When they show
up (rarely). That's a "good" economy? Of course, this is Arkansas.

Post by SteveC1280
More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
candidates push for a buy American movement.
Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.

A better solution would be the Sales Tax only system.. Then you could
choose how to pay your taxes, or not to. I have been involved in the
creation of many "off-shore" positions (I.T.) to Montreal. The main
reason my company did it was that Wall Street expects it to happen now
or the company doesn't look like they are in control of their labor
costs. It has nothing to do with legalizing foreign labor. It has
everything to do with stock price. I guess pretty soon, I'll be going
over the wall to Mexico looking for a job.


Greg

[Mike]

Post by Walker
If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up the
gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?
Because the politicians need the votes but more importantly, to expand the

tax base because we are not keeping up with population growth enough to keep
up with government spending!!

[Stan kirby]

That should be simple. To make more of us higher paid workers out of
touch with employers. If your not seeing this your not seeing to good
are you?

Post by Walker
If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he

opening up the
gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left? <<

[Leon]

I believe that has already happened... Import automobiles have a heavy tax
burden that brings the prices more in line with the American built cars.

Post by SteveC1280
More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
candidates push for a buy American movement.
Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.

[Brian Elfert]

Post by Leon
I believe that has already happened... Import automobiles have a heavy tax
burden that brings the prices more in line with the American built cars.

Even if there is a tax burden, Korean built cars are still less expensive
than USA built cars, at least on the low end.

Brian Elfert

[Leon]

I guess the point I was trying to make is that if people are forced to
choose one product over another, they will resent it. Build a better
product at a competitive price and you will not need the government to
heavily tax items that we want to buy.

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by Leon
I believe that has already happened... Import automobiles have a heavy tax
burden that brings the prices more in line with the American built cars.

Even if there is a tax burden, Korean built cars are still less expensive
than USA built cars, at least on the low end.
Brian Elfert

[WD]

Post by SteveC1280
More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
candidates push for a buy American movement.

BUY MADE IN USA!



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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[Larry Blanchard]

In article <40215c7d$***@corp.newsgroups.com>, ***@wherevernet.com
says...

Post by WD
BUY MADE IN USA!

HOW?

[Unisaw A100]

wdmcc says...

Post by WD
BUY MADE IN USA!

Larry Blanchard

HOW?

Buy used. :-)

UA100

[Joseph Smith]

Maybe the best thing for government to do is stay out of
business all together.
Politicians are already screaming for a raise of minimum wage to over
$7.00/hr. For what christsakes!? Because some lame idiot was too busy
smoking dope and beating the other kids for lunch money to stay in
school to be educated!? So now he has to live of min. wage or welfare?
Then taxes are raised which drives up the costs of businesses or wages are
forced to be increased for the guy who sweeps the floor, takes out the
trash,
etc... and the overhead for businesses go up. Government (legislative and
judicial)
always screws things up because they are all a bunch of lawyers instead of
business men.
Bill Gates produces a better more users friendly product and everyone
sues him because he's got a "monopoly". No they sue him because he's
got money and it is politically correct to demonize him.
A guy invents a better way to copy papers. Nobody likes his idea and
tells him to hit the road (i.e. Eastman Kodak). So what does he do? He
hocks
everything he has to start a garage business to produce machines that use
the process of xerography ( 99.999% of all copiers, faxes, laser printers
today use this process)
and XEROX is born and becomes big and successful. So then all those
companies
that rejected him end up filing a law suit against XEROX and win to get a
release on his patent and boom the Japanese kills us on the world market
with
copier and printer technology.
Sue the Tobacco companies because people are too stupid to read the labels
and too stupid to be responsible for their own actions. Demonize them
because they
are successful, and get a court order to steal their money. Another
successful
business on its way down.
No if any politician really wants to support the economy, then get
government
the hell out and let businessman do their jobs. Create successful companies
that produce our jobs. So we can produce products that are both good
quality
at a good price.

Post by SteveC1280
More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
candidates push for a buy American movement.
Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.

[p_j]

Post by Joseph Smith
Politicians are already screaming for a raise of minimum wage to over
$7.00/hr. For what christsakes!? Because some lame idiot was too busy
smoking dope and beating the other kids for lunch money to stay in
school to be educated!?

!?!

Post by Joseph Smith
Bill Gates produces a better more users friendly product and everyone
sues him because he's got a "monopoly".

There are a lot of whoppers floating around this discussion, but this
one is priceless.

Post by Joseph Smith
No they sue him because he's
got money and it is politically correct to demonize him.

Its PC to defend him actually.

The guy keeps breaking laws and then getting slapped on the wrist. The
laws are there to provide a framework. They are required for capitalism.
Among the many suits he has lost include ones for merely taking what
doesn't belong to him.

[BIG JOE]

Don't forget the USA 14" Bandsaw. I was thinking of eventually
selling my Jet and buying that one, since they take the same blades
and my Jet has broken down and doesn't seem as well built.

Joe

Post by Brian Elfert
Pentair is selling because the tool divison only generates 10% margins vs
13% for their water systems.
I'll bet this will be the last gasp for Made in the USA Delta and
Porter-Cable products. A new buyer would probably move Unisaw production
overseas to increase margins.
Brian Elfert

[Dusty Workshop]

I just read about this too.
Check out these links to see the full story...

http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/4357008.html

and...

http://www.smartmoney.com/bn/ON/index.cfm?story=ON-20040204-000662-0923

I am curious to see what develops from here.

Dusty

"A man without a wife is like a fish without a bicycle." unknown

[RB]

It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
colony of Asia. Or are we already?

RB

Post by Brian Elfert
Pentair has hired Goldman Sachs to sell its tool division. Brand names
include Delta, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss Air Power, and Oldham Saw.
Pentair is selling because the tool divison only generates 10% margins vs
13% for their water systems.
I'll bet this will be the last gasp for Made in the USA Delta and
Porter-Cable products. A new buyer would probably move Unisaw production
overseas to increase margins.
Brian Elfert

[Brian Elfert]

Post by RB
It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
colony of Asia. Or are we already?

I'm positive the value of everything manufactured in the USA far, far
exceeds the value of everything manufactured in Asia that is imported.

It just seems like everything is being made in Asia because so many
household goods are made there. You and I don't see the made in the USA
labels on lots of things because they are buried inside other things we
buy.

There isn't a made in the USA label on a Boeing jet, yet they are made
right here in the USA.

Brian Elfert

[BruceR]

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by RB
It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
colony of Asia. Or are we already?

I'm positive the value of everything manufactured in the USA far, far
exceeds the value of everything manufactured in Asia that is imported.
It just seems like everything is being made in Asia because so many
household goods are made there. You and I don't see the made in the USA
labels on lots of things because they are buried inside other things we
buy.
There isn't a made in the USA label on a Boeing jet, yet they are made
right here in the USA.

I thought they had large sections of fuselage sub contracted out to China?

-Bruce

Post by Brian Elfert
Brian Elfert

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[Scott Lurndal]

Post by BruceR

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by RB
It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
colony of Asia. Or are we already?

I'm positive the value of everything manufactured in the USA far, far
exceeds the value of everything manufactured in Asia that is imported.
It just seems like everything is being made in Asia because so many
household goods are made there. You and I don't see the made in the USA
labels on lots of things because they are buried inside other things we
buy.
There isn't a made in the USA label on a Boeing jet, yet they are made
right here in the USA.

I thought they had large sections of fuselage sub contracted out to China?

Assembled in America. Something better than 50% of the 777 and
probably more like 65% of the 7E7 are/will be built by foreign
contractors (Japan and Europe being the largest).

scott

[Mark & Juanita]

Post by BruceR

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by RB
It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
colony of Asia. Or are we already?

I'm positive the value of everything manufactured in the USA far, far
exceeds the value of everything manufactured in Asia that is imported.
It just seems like everything is being made in Asia because so many
household goods are made there. You and I don't see the made in the USA
labels on lots of things because they are buried inside other things we
buy.
There isn't a made in the USA label on a Boeing jet, yet they are made
right here in the USA.

I thought they had large sections of fuselage sub contracted out to China?

Nope, Japan. China is not quite there in terms of high-end,
consistently reliable manufacturing.

[Dmitri]

Post by Mark & Juanita

Post by BruceR

Post by Brian Elfert

Post by RB
It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
colony of Asia. Or are we already?

I'm positive the value of everything manufactured in the USA far, far
exceeds the value of everything manufactured in Asia that is imported.
It just seems like everything is being made in Asia because so many
household goods are made there. You and I don't see the made in the USA
labels on lots of things because they are buried inside other things we
buy.
There isn't a made in the USA label on a Boeing jet, yet they are made
right here in the USA.

I thought they had large sections of fuselage sub contracted out to China?

Nope, Japan. China is not quite there in terms of high-end,
consistently reliable manufacturing.

This is something which really surprises me about this country.
Which is lack of really high end US made products. I think is some
kind of deficiency in a culture. My wife works in Berkeley Lab and
most, if not all, precise equipment they use made abroad. Most from
Germany, France and Japan. These are not low wage places. Why
American companies do not make any equipment which would compete
in this market? This is not only about precise machinery. Simple
erasers, just block of latex, yet all engineering students use
German erasers (not Chinese), while american made are really a
piece of crap. Why good erasers can't be made here in US? My only
guess is a lack of culture of the management. There is of course
pressure to increase margins and stock price but it does exist in
Europe and Japan as well. So, I am not surprised that some major
parts of Boeing jet made in Japan.

I am not an American, though I live here in US. And I wish this
country to succeed, not in launching men to the Mars (though it
would be good) or waging wars left and right, but in making life
of its people better. But I don't hold my breath.

Dmitri

[Mike]

If China and Japan stop buying our debt, we will be worst off than what you
describe. Unfortunately right now they need us as bad as we need them but
the music will eventually stop. The thing we should pray for is to have the
China bubble to burst like our dot.com one did a few years ago. Don't blame
either country, the real villains are corporate America and the buffoons
that run it.

Post by RB
It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
colony of Asia. Or are we already?
RB

[Unisaw A100]

I'm wondering, Nahmie sponsored by Jet?

UA100

[Bob Schmall]

Post by Unisaw A100
I'm wondering, Nahmie sponsored by Jet?
UA100

bingo.

Pentair made the news in Milwaukee today by buying a business owned by our
local utility, where my wife works. Let's see--how many degrees of
separation is that between me and my Unisaw?

Bob

[Mutt]

Post by Unisaw A100
I'm wondering, Nahmie sponsored by Jet?
UA100

Well, simply because Pentair wishes to sell the tools unit does not
mean all that much from my point of view. This business has been
bought and sold several times, moved from Milwalkee to Tennessee,
outsourced, overseas-ed, pinched for profits and likely reconfigured
in as many ways as some newly minted MBAs who don't know a dado from a
tenon could dream up. Let's face it, the Pentair finance guys have
made a decision that the earinings curve on
homeowner/hobbyist/professional tool sales volume has peaked, right or
wrong, so they are sellers. I mean, after all, mass market is where
the sales volume is. Jet is also on the verge of eating their lunch,
Dewalt and Jet have been a bit more innovative in product development,
and Jet has shown committment to the sector with their Powermatic
acquisition. We all can complain from time to time, but Jet is really
giving Delta a run for their money in the stationery tool market, I
own both brands and frankly find it hard to distinguish -again,
overall- from quality. Yes, I like my Delta 14" band saw a bit more
than the Jet, but the two cabinet saws are indistinguishable in
quality - I bought the Unisaw only because the dealer matched the
price to the Jet for a "Great White" leftover. The fact is Pentair
has a $1 Billion revenue stream (which ain't chicken liver) from tools
generating <10% margins - who's to say that a buyer, at a price based
upon an appropriate earnings multiple, could not tweak the business,
make it stronger, more responsive to its customers, improve the
margins and make it better in the long run for both the owners and the
customers? I for one would rather have someone focused on tools as
their main business, rather than water treatment. It's like when AMF
bought Harley Davidson, they ran it into the ground, bunch of bean
counters, and the product suffered - those bikes were garbage. Get
someone really committed to the product and customer and folks will
pay a bit more for service and quality.

[p_j]

Post by Brian Elfert
I'll bet this will be the last gasp for Made in the USA Delta and
Porter-Cable products.

I wonder about Biesemeyer. I was looking at their website to try and
ed-y-kate muhself and noticed they were owned by Delta.